Before class on Thursday, I'd like you to reflect on Tuesday's class and what we've learned about American Indian sex/gender systems. How would you define or describe what a two-spirit person is? What's distinct (now and historically) about sex/gender within the context of Native American cultures? How have they informed European and Anglo-American notions of sexuality?
Second, after you complete the reading for Thursday, I'd like you pose a question or two about the reading that you think would generate an interesting discussion for the rest of class. Make sure it's an open-ended question (one that can't be answered with a yes or no) and responds to the reading in engaging ways.
The biggest thing I learned about Indian sex/gender is their cultures ability to include and except those who are two-spirited as they call it. To me a two spirited person is one who can identify with either female or male from a day to day basis without scrutiny. The fact that Native American cultures incorporate those that are two-spirited makes their culture distinct. I think that Native Americans have been a culture that doesn't put restrictions on what a person is or can be. Because European and Anglo-Americans have always had an "exact idea" of what a women and man are, they were surprised to see a different gender.
ReplyDeleteSecondly in Rosenberg’s reading, why does she find relationships between women so intriguing?
I personally find the aspect of two-spirited people in Indigenous societies to be fascinating and essential to understanding what variations of "queer" mean in our modern society. I would describe a "two-spirited" individual to be a person that does not fit one single form of the gender binary put in place by western cultures. This could mean numerous things and may or may not refer to homosexuality in our modern understanding. I just think it is important to have read and learned about two spirited individuals to show that the "traditional" way of looking at gender/sex in the United States was actually accepting of these unique people. The conditions of gender variations usually went without issue in Native cultures and was not looked down upon until Europeans came with their repressive institutions. However, due to the Anglo-American influence the two-spirited people did receive sorts of labeling that did not previously exist, even if they were not the most flattering. The Europeans also were able to see a completely different way of life from their own.
ReplyDeleteA two spirited person is one who can emulate the knowledge of one gender while living in another. This does not mean that they are transient or in transition from one body or another they simply are both. This creates 4 genders that is widely accepted and integrated in Native culture. These people had purpose and meaning within their society such as taking care of orphaned children, but there is still a difficulty that these people faced. When the conquistadors entered into the Americas (and was not just in the Americas) the translation of cultural was muddied through language. One such example of this is the Mujerado. Mujer translates to woman and ado generally is ing or ed in English making the translation sound objectifying and synthetic. This translation in proper English was artificial woman, which as stated above is not the same. As history passed similar situations happened where words were brought back into use but had different meanings. This cross-cultural exchange has caused complications, but the sentiments behind the two spirit probably embodies the closest idea, of what most of the non-derogatory terms mean.
ReplyDeleteIn the Halberstam piece she talks about the idea that feminine masculinity is separate from male masculinity how does this correlate to two spirits, and why has western culture taken this view?
I would describe a two spirit person as someone who does not feel limited to conforming to whatever their society or culture prescribes as proper feminine behavior or proper masculine behavior. Instead a two spirit person might fluctuate between such performances, or try to reply not on cultural scripts, but in ways they as individuals feel compelled to think, act, feel, or behave. What is distinct within Native American cultures is the idea that people of any gender performance have a place within their society, that they have roles they can preform and can expect to be accepted rather than ostracized. The fact that they made room within their culture for 4 genders rather than replying on the typical European 2 gender binary is also distinct. They have informed European American sensibilities when related to sexuality by promoting the idea of acceptance, human dignity, care, and flexibility over rigid rules of conformity and in-groups/out-groups.
ReplyDeleteHow has the limited historical recognition/acknowledgment of the gender queer or not so hetero-normative people within Western society influenced our perception on how they move through society and what they contribute with their presence?
I think a two-spirit is someone that can associate with both sides of western culture's gender binary form and lives the form that "feels" right. They live the way they feel they were meant to be without having to conform or change who they are. I think it's important to note that two-spirits were accepted and sometimes even revered in American Indian culture. It was a standard part of life and two-spirits were often celebrated. I think with the video we saw that some American Indians still celebrate this traditional way of life while others have been converted to the European/Anglo-American ideal. It wasn't until the Europeans forcibly colonized the American Indians that they adopted the terms gay and homosexual and began to see the two-spirit way of life as deviant.
ReplyDeleteMy question comes from Rosenberg's piece. Would this kind of intense intimate female friendship/relationship be possible in today's society with how different times are in terms of gender roles, gender segregation, and societal expectations?
A two-spirit is someone who can accept the sex they have been born into, but identify with the gender they feel more comfortable with, which is generally the opposite of their sex. It is very interesting that the two-spirits are given a specific role in Native American culture by just taking on the duties of the gender they identify with. As we talked about in class, they are accepted, rather than tolerated, and that makes their distinction unique from the treatment given to the LGBT community. They have informed other nations of this by giving such a simple translation of such a seemingly complex idea to our culture. By calling it "two-spirit" it cuts out all the language barrier complications of having names like transgender or transexual.
ReplyDeleteI would like to pose the question of the difference between male masculinity and female masculinity as it relates to the native american idea of two-spirit and also how are the extremely close relationships that females had affected by cultural norms today?
The two-spirit idea is that a person may have the spirit of both sexes, while their body only exteriorly reveals one. This often meant that the would fulfill the societal roll of the sex they were born with. For example, a woman may wish to join the men and hunt while a man may wish to stay with the women and cook or weave.
ReplyDeleteThey were accepted into the community as a natural part of life, rather than something that the tribe would have to tolerate. The historical difference relates to how we discussed the words tolerate and accept. The natives accepted the two spirits where as in modern-day America, I think many people who identify as gay, lesbian, queer, etc would feel like society merely tolerates them.
The Europeans who colonized the native tribes stamped out this tradition by forcing these 4 genders into only 2. The terms gay/lesbian developed because the European thought was more towards sexual orientation rather than the inner spirit as the defining factor of an individuals role in society and what name they should be given.
How would the modern-day lesbian who identifies as a "femme" fit in with the idea of two spirit?
Two-spirited people simultaneously hold a masculine and feminine spirit within them, either male to female or vice versa. Native American culture views two-spirited individuals as gifted with precious power and talent. It is normal to have female male and male female people as part of their community. They are respected, valued and welcomed regardless of their gender identity. Two-spirited people are raised to embody their identity by assuming the roles they associate with, men can wear women’s clothes and mingle with the women. There was a culture clash between the Europeans and Anglo-Americans existing ideology regarding sex and gender roles and the Native Americans acceptance and openness in the matter. For the Westerners, two-spirited people were considered deviant and as these ideals were imposed on the Native American cultures, two-spirit became silenced or marginalized within the culture itself. A significant aspect of the two-spirit cultures is that Native Americans did not have strict lines separating female and male gender roles for there existed a fluidity and connection between these two. Conversely, the Westerners upheld these roles and anything out of it was not normal.
ReplyDeleteHalberstam presents evidence that supports the variety of same-sex desire models, specifically focusing on female masculinity. Why is it that terminology continues to be so tightly attached to same-sex desire models such as ‘lesbian’, especially when the variety in them is so evident?
"Two-spirit" takes away the label and allows the person to be who they are, freely. There are no restrictions or rigid definitions of who they can be. They could be a person who is the male sex but identifies with the female gender, a male that identifies with both or a female who identifies as male, etc. It also does not limit the sexuality of the person. It enables them to be who they want and be attracted to who they want. This is distinct about the Native American cultures. They recognize that not everyone fits into one of the two boxes of gender. Nobody is seen as being attracted to the same sex because no matter what, they are the opposite. If a man identifies as female, he is not a man with a man, he takes on the female role. Ultimately, there is an acceptance for people being who they are. I think the only way the two-spirit idea has informed European and Anglo-American notions of sexuality is the idea of homosexuality. There is still a label placed on it. Because it does not fall within the European ideas of sexuality, explanations are made for the behavior that do not match the actual idea of two-spirit. However, it does send a message of acceptance that runs deep within Native American cultures.
ReplyDeleteFrom the Rosenburg article, one of the things that I wondered was when did the deep-seated same-sex companionship change? Up until the mid-20th century people did not see their marital partner as their friend. A husband's wife was just that. He sought everything else from his male companions. And it seems like the women did exactly the same thing. Now, there's a strong notion that you marry your best friend and equal. At what point did this shift occur? The sexual revolution? The women's rights movement?
I read an article not too long ago that suggested that female sexuality is more malleable because there are far more girls now identifying themselves as "bisexual". They basically said that the guys around them were lame and not fulfilling any of their needs - emotionally or physically. So they found that they could get that fulfillment from their female friends. They provided the intellectual stimulation and intimacy that these girls wanted. And I wonder if this is similar to the way women used to be. They would seek companionship because their male counterparts were not fulfilling their needs. Is it possible that women could return to those days? Otherwise "heterosexual" women seeking intimacy from their female companions?
I believe that the two-spirit was basically the embodiment of a single person that has two souls within them that allow that person to connect to both sides of the spiritual world of thoughts. They could think and tap into “both” different sexual ideals. I think the tradition of these “two-spirits” helped to show that the idea of a different system for gender is something that is normal and natural.
ReplyDeleteIn your opinion, is the progression of terms and the ideology of being same-sex couples/ two-spirit/gay help or hinder the population that feel this way and how does the changing ideas of masculinity and femininity relate to these terms?
A two-spirit person is situated at the intersection of sex, gender, and gender roles. Because this person sits at the intersection of these identities, a two-spirit person is upheld by his or her community and holds a unique role in the society as a counselor and sage. During the original conquest, the concept of two-spirit people or genders beyond the binary system failed to make any sort of impact on Anglo-Saxon culture, ideas or politics. It seems only now that a greater understanding of this aspect of Native American culture is being attempted, which seems a bit of a shame since so much of the original richness of these cultures has already been lost.
ReplyDeleteSmith-Rosenberg's piece seemed to have an underlying connection to the idea of public/private spheres that was the main structural aspect of society and politics at the time. To what extent can the women's different relationships be explained by the strength and distance of the two spheres? I would argue that a relationship with someone inside the same sphere--another woman--would provide partnership, identity, and understanding that a heterosexual relationship could not because of subjugation and subjection at the time. Furthermore, I think our present attempts to eliminate the spheres or at least bring them closer together could explain our misunderstanding or moving away from such close same-sex relationship between women.
What I took away from the film is that a two-spirit is neither man nor women, but both. Depending on the day, they may encompass traits and characteristics of either. They are not segregated into a simple two-sex system, but a much more complex four-sex system, making Native American sex/gender differences much more accepted into their culture. For example, the two-spirits were fully integrated and this was displayed in the way they were given tasks. They parented orphaned children, and had other roles in society that did not dismiss them or try to hide them away, but fully embrace their way of life. When the Europeans arrived, they informed them about sexuality by introducing this multiple gender system to them. Sadly, Europeans dismissed this system and with colonization attempted to insert their two-sex system in the United States. This is when the terms lesbian and gay entered the Native American community and caused damage to their traditional four-sex system.
ReplyDeleteFrom Rosenberg's work, I question the intense female relationship and bonds women had, and at what point and why did these relationships change for modern day society? And if they didn't change, would they even be able to exist as such today?
Two-spirit persons transcend the normative, Western understanding of gender, sexuality and bodies. These persons are considered to be individuals that have equitable parts of the masculine and feminine in their spirit, regardless of what their bodies look like and do. The importance here is that the notion is holistic and moves beyond the physical realm of identity understandings. This being said most Western ideas try to fit the two-spirited individual into understands of trans or gay/lesbian culture; however this view is amazingly simplistic and inefficient. What’s distinct about sex/gender in indigenous cultures in the imperialized America is that often in these tribes and communities sex and gender were amazingly more fluid when compared to Western notions; however this fluidity doesn’t necessarily apply to labor divisions. Currently, this is strikingly different, largely (or completely) in part to imperialization by European communities, and mainly the role that Christianization has played in indigenous resettlements. However, these actions have worked in tandem to create a distinct understanding of gender, sex, and sexuality in the context of the United States. Which is to say that through the understandings of sex/gender from numerous First Nations has combined with traditional European understandings to form a distinctly “American” notion of sexuality, gender and sex via language, ideology and labor roles (though the European/Christian context has often had a stronger role in defining these distinct notions).
ReplyDeleteAfter reading Halberstam what important notions of intersectionality is brought up with both case studies? Are these notions still true today? Is there an importance in the ability to ‘pass’ and how can ‘passing’ be preformed differently? Does Halberstam give the same research to these intersectional identities as she does to the female performances of masculinity? And does this possible oversight take away from her arguments about female masculinities? [Think especially about race/ethnicity and socio-economic status with gender and/or gender deviance]
What do you make of Halberstam’s reading of what makes a body “healthy” on page 58? What’s important about her assumptions about bodies, especially in the context of female masculinity? Consider, also, her application of female masculinity with androgyny on page 57.
When we discussed and watched the two-spirit movie on Tuesday, I certainly learned a lot. The "definition" I got about a two-spirit was how certain Native Americans defined their sexuality. I wasn't about the acts they committed but indeed more about how they interacted with the world, where they felt they fit in. It was about opening their world up to the possibilities of both of their desires/connections within. What I found distinct about the Native Americans was how they all seemed to accept this term and the people who define themselves by it. Whereas in Western Culture we sometimes only tolerate the term, gay, queer, so on. With this definition of two-spirit they were able to break a language barrier, this term was relateable to all cultures.
ReplyDeleteAfter I read Rosenburgs article I had a number of questions. I can see how these woman would bond together to get some compassion and relationship from one another, but why did the men a)Not be as passionate to the woman, and b) did they not notice what was going on? Or did they and just not care and go about their own business?
Also as Helen asked, What happened between then and now to make these relationships change
Two-spirit is in many ways a much better term than a label of "gay" "transexual" "intersexual" etc. because it doesn't place people into a group that then then feel as though they have to fit in to. Two-spirit allows people to feel comfortable with experimenting with different things without having to confuse people or themselves with a label. I know many people who flip-flop from being "gay" to "straight" to "bisexual" then back to "gay" because we are constantly looking for a label in which to place ourselves so we can feel a sense of belonging. I feel like with two-spirited, it's still a "label" but it's basically belonging to the universe and all the energies that people can tap into. No one is completely "straight" or "gay" or "bisexual" so I feel as though it is almost detrimental to put ourselves in categories such as those. Once you put a label on yourself you immediately, maybe unconsciously, try to fit into that label in the best way possible.
ReplyDeleteMy question about the Judith Halberstam reading is, if many males helped shape what we now call "femininity" and many females helped shape "masculinity" then why to we associate feminine with only women and masculine with only men? It just doesn't make much sense if historically there have always been feminine males and masculine females.
Two-spirited people are blessed with both masculine and feminine perspectives. Native Americans valued these individuals in their culture. Two-spirited people were respected due to their unique outlook of life and were free to live their identities. Native American culture allowed people to experience their spirituality to their fullest potential. Their culture was less imposing and allowed two-spirit people to explore which gender he or she identified better with. European culture set strict structures and guidelines to what they thought to be the “appropriate” roles of a man or a woman. When European culture overlapped Native American culture, two-spirit people were devalued, disrespected, and became insignificant. Europeans did not accept two-spirit people in their “new” and “improved” society.
ReplyDeleteNative Americans were less judgmental than European and Anglo-Americans and thus allowed people to be free and proud of their sexuality.
In a same sex relationship, naturally each partner tends to fill one of the two gender roles. In a relationship with two, two-spirit partners how would his or her roles compare to that of a heterosexual relationship?
I have a lot of questions about the reading for this Thursday. One of my questions would be honestly, how were all the forms of relationships between women so little discussed in Victorian times when women composed over half the population and society was clearly so gender split?
ReplyDeleteMy question regarding the other reading about female husbands and the like was how were women like Anne able to exist in such a stereotypical prude society without being frequently talked about in modern days? I wonder this because it seems a woman so defiantly behaving as a man would show up in more history books or something rather than only in articles specifically addressing masculine women.
I found two-spirit to be a much more comprehensive term from the Native Americans than any other word heard thus far. It encompasses not only men and women, but people with two spirits. It was most notable that there was a firm place for two-spirits within Native American culture. They could do anything from healing and counseling to taking care of orphaned children, all important tasks in any society. The Europeans had more of a blinded way of thinking about people that did not strictly identify with one gender and instead of embracing or finding a specific purpose for everyone in their culture they dismissed what would be a two-spirit way of thinking and created the world we know today. This goes back to the thought of woman being inferior to man to Europeans when in Native American culture; women were regarded just as highly as men and had their own places within the group, both spiritually and in day-to-day activities.
ReplyDeleteIn a world that has greatly experienced homophobic tendencies, did the original two gender system pave the way for women and men to spend so much time with their same gender to create such strong emotional bonds between them? Is it because women were supposed to act like women that therefore they felt like they couldn’t reveal the intimate details they were sharing with each other to their husbands?
I would describe a two-spirit person as someone who is free from the constraints of gender differences as we know it today. A two-spirit embodies both male and female qualities and traits, holding a valuable balance of both. Rather than denigrating one for having less of a particular side, the term two-spirit honors the significance of being able to hold both feminine and masculine qualities. It removes the restriction of a binary perspective of gender, to encompass and praise all the different sides of gender within a person. I think the concept of a two-spirit person, is in itself distinct; that Native American cultures embrace this idea of two-spirit, and find those who are, extremely useful and sacred. It is a completely opposing concept to Western/European culture, and I find it fascinating that a culture embedded with history and traditions can still seek to re-emerge with these traditions. Even now, there are culturally transformed versions of the word two-spirit, (some that seek to shame the idea), but the tradition still remains within those who classify themselves as two-spirit person. Roscoe’s piece explains the Native American culture as influential to European and Anglo American notions of sexuality through a multitude of ways. First off, they have informed through discourse and terms that are representative of “two-spirit”, causing several historical changes of terms such as berdache, hermaphrodite, sodomite, etc., that is reflective of the Europeans attempts to categorize in the most reasonable way. They have also informed, as evidenced by European discourse, through “a moral discourse on cultural diversity..prodigies..historically..and through social sciences and medicine”(212)
ReplyDeleteHalberstam's makes the notion that female masculinity historically differs from "manly masculinity", and that this led to the deliberate exclusion of female masculinity, thus resulting in various after-effects of how femininity and masculinity is seen in our modern day time. How can this correlation be explained within Native American culture, where female masculinity is honored rather than seen threatening and unpleasant, yet similar traits of manliness masculinity compares to modern day masculinity?
A two-spirit person embodies a wide array of queer identities. It does not force them into rigid category but a fluid one in which a person can be as feminine and as masculine as they desire. There sexual desires are not necessarily linked to how they choose to present themselves are cherished as having purpose within different facets of Native American communities. The term two-spirit is the best way for Native Americans to come to an understanding of the different understanding they hold on sex, gender and sexuality.
ReplyDeleteWHat I found interesting about the Halberstam article was the discussion of tribadism(sp?) I thought it interesting that a woman who desired tribade stimulation were considered lesbians. I wonder then if a women who was with a man and tried such stimulation was considered then to be to masculine and/ or a lesbian by there standards? Also how open were the close female relationships? Was it a phenomenon everyone knew existed and turned a blind eye, or was it very secretive? If it was open, to what extent was it alright?
i was enlightened by the idea of two spirits. the idea of having the body of one gender, and being able to portray themselves as another, and be excepted by their tribe as what they portray themselves as, without being excluded is the way all trans people should be treated.
ReplyDeletewhy has the connection between men and masculinity remained so strong when women have been taking on that characteristic in this generation?
I find the concept of a two-spirited person to be very fascinating. I say this because in the Indigenous culture they welcomed change in people. By giving the people the name two-spirits they showed their respect for them. They let them live free and allowed them to express themselves the way they wished to. It kept alive the feminine side and the masculine side of those who wished to become two-spirited. Unlike the Western/European culture where things are completely the opposite. Here we don't allow these people to be able to express themselves in the way they wish to. To me it seems like we force these people to decide to pick on or the other there is no respect shown for them. We "deal" with it because there is nothing to do. There is no such concept as two-spirited people in the Western/European world. I do admire the Indigenous people for being so respectful and accepting.
ReplyDeleteQuestion: How do the roles play out differently with two people of the two-spirited than the homosexuals of the Western/European world in a relationship? And why?
Also why is it that we always say men don't know what a women want or that they are not passionate enough towards us like another woman would be?
A two- spirited person is one who goes beyond society’s conformation to just one gender. This person may have characteristics of multiple genders. This is commonly accepted in Native America culture such as the Kaska of Canada and the Yuma. In Kaska of Canada tribe leaders would designate a daughter in a family (since they only had daughters) as a boy. At a young age she would have a pouch of dried bear ovaries to her belt. She would dress in male clothing and function in the Kaska male role. In the Yuma tribe leaders classified their children as male or female according to the game they decided to play with. Unlike other societies, men and women are accepted as the gender they themselves associate with. There is no question of tolerance in Native American societies when it comes to gender.
ReplyDeleteWhen Europeans came over, they suppressed these societies and forced them to conform to their ideas of gender. This has formed questions of what it sex and gender mean in society. To the Europeans it is only two genders and that meant forcing compliance on the Native American culture.
In the reading by Carrol Smith Rosenberg, she states that the female friendship of the 19th century, the long lived, intimate, loving friendship between two women is an excellent example of the type of the historical phenomenon which most historians know something about, which few have thought about and which virtually no one has written about. These relationships ranged from supportive love of sisters, through the enthusiasms of adolescent girls, to sensual avowals of love by mature women. My question is since women in the past have been so open to being close to other women in a ways that range from friends to sexual partners. Then, why is this notion not accepted easily into today’s society? Not just with women, but with men?
I’m sorry, I completely forgot to post reflection and question. Form the class about two-sprit, I thought two-sprit have a similar meaning of gay or lesbian, but it is a little different. It means person who have both of man’s and women’s characteristic and I thought they are proud of being two-sprit. They can choose gender to express themselves. It is good viewpoint. The term, gay and lesbian still have a negative meaning in European society, but two-sprit does not have negative sprit in Native American society. It is new idea for me and I understand there are some words to express “gay and lesbian ” in each society and have a different background and meaning.
ReplyDeleteA two-spirit person is an American Indian/First Nations individual who self identifies outside of binary gender. Some two-spirit individuals fit in our western categories of transgender or genderqueer, but in general, two-spirit identities are a completely different category of identity.
ReplyDeleteIn relation to the female romantic friendships of the Victorian era, they reminded me of concepts of platonic or spiritual relationships I have studied in French literature (especially 17th-19th century, but also existing in earlier and later eras) as well as modern friends with benefits scenarios
I would describe a two-spirit person as someone who doesn’t fit into traditional Western stereotypes of masculinity and femininity in regards to men and women, respectively. A two-spirit person is someone who breaks these gender stereotypes and yet are accepted in the Native American culture. I think it’s really interesting that these people are accepted in basic, natural and traditional cultures but they are rejected in contemporary Western society. Beyond that, it’s frightening how the Conquistadors conducted a genocide on these two-spirit individuals upon colonization because of the misunderstanding of their nature and the inability to accept differences.
ReplyDeleteAgain as repeatedly said, two-spirit refers to a fluid gender outside the binary of gender. The most profound aspect of two-spirit is its dichotomy to colonizers and later American constructionists thought on gender and sexual dissidence. While these dismantling of the binary was well accepted in the Native American community it seems this obviously did not take to a highly institutional and christian community of peoples.
ReplyDelete